Plato 2004. Republic. Translated from the New Standard Greek Text, with Introduction, by C. D. C. Reeve. Indianapolis; Cambridge: Hackett Publishing Company, Inc. [Book V]
[ADEIMANTUS:] You thought we would not notice when you said - as though it were something inconsequential - that, as regards women and children, anyone could see that it will be a case of friends sharing everything in common. (Plato 2004: 136,449c)
Toda mööduvat märkust vt 423d-424a. Alternatiivne ja natuke tabavam (Cambridge'i väljaande) tõlge: "You think that when it comes to women and children you can get away with a casual remark to the effect that friends will hold things in common, as if no one could be in any doubt about this" (2000: 144).
[SOCRATES:] You do not realize what a swarm of arguments you are now stirring up by making this demand. (Plato 2004: 137, 450a)
Alternatiivselt "without the slightest idea what a verbal hornet's nest you are stirring up" (2000: 145).
GLAUCON: Do not hesitate at all. You see, your audience won't be inconsiderate, or incredulous, or hostile. (Plato 2004: 137, 450d)
"Your audience is neither ignorant, nor sceptical, nor hostile" (2000: 146). Justkui (1) hostile, (2) sceptical / incredulous ja (3) ignorant / inconsiderate.
[SOCRATES:] You see, I suspect that involuntary homicide is a lesser crime than misleading people about beautiful, good, and just conventions. That is a risk it would be better to run among enemies than among friends. So you have well and truly encouraged me. (Plato 2004: 138, 451a)
Midagi sellist nagu "nõu on püha" (advice is holy).
[SOCRATES:] And we will remind them that it is not long since the Greeks thought it shameful and ridiculous (as many barbarians still do) for men to be seen stripped, and that when first the Cretans and then the Lacedaemonians began the gymnasiums, the wits of the time had the opportunity to make a comedy of it all. Or don't you think so? (Plato 2004: 140, 452c-d)
Griffithil joonealune märkus, mille järgi see tava oli üllatavalt hiline, Pythagorase eluajal: "Since the late sixth or early fifth century it had become standard in the Greek world for men to take their physical exercise naked" (2000: 148, fm 7). "We can remind them that it is not so very long since the Greeks thought it immoral and absurd, as most foreigners still think it, for men to be seen naked."
GLAUCON: No, by Zeus, it certainly does not seem to be a simple matter.
SOCRATES: No, it is not. But the fact is that whether one falls into a small diving pool or into the middle of the largest sea, one has to swim all the same.
GLAUCON: Of course.
SOCRATES: Then we must swim, too, and try to save ourselves from the sea of argument, hoping for a dolphin to pick us up, or for some other unlikely rescue. (Plato 2004: 141, 453d)
Veel ujumismetafoore, nagu 4. raamatus, "Well, we have had a difficult swim through all that" (441c).
SOCRATES: Because many people seem to me to fall into it even against their wills, and think they are engaging not in eristic, but in discussion. This happens because they are unable to examine what has been said by dividing it up into kinds. Instead, it is on the purely verbal level that they look for the contradiction in what has been said, and employ eristic, not dialectic, on one another. (Plato 2004: 142, 454a)
Arutelu vs sõnadega mängimine. "They believe they are holding a discussion, whereas in fact they are having a competition" (2000: 150).
SOCRATES: Come on, then, we will say to him, give us an answer: "Is this what you meant by one person being naturally well suited for something and another naturally unsuited: that the one learns it easily, the other with difficulty; that the one, after a little instruction, can discover a lot for himself in the subject being studied, whereas the other, even if he gets a lot of instruction and attention, does not even retain what he was taught; that the bodily capacities of the one adequately serve his mind, while those of the other obstruct his? Are there any other factors than these, by which you distinguish a person who is naturally well suited for each pursuit from one who is not?" (Plato 2004: 143, 455b-c)
Ilmselgelt ühel on asja vastu huvi, teisel mitte.
SOCRATES: Won't one be suited for physical training or war, then, while another is unwarlike and not a lover of physical training?
GLAUCON: I suppose so.
SOCRATES: And one a philosopher (lover of wisdom), another a "misosopher" (hater of wisdom)? And one spirited, another spiritless? (Plato 2004: 144, 456a)
Mind häirib, et siin ei käi asjad ilusti triaadis - mõõdukus jäetakse välja.
SOCRATES: That all these women should be shared among all the men, that no individual woman and man should live together, and that the children, too, should be shared, with no parent knowing its own offspring, and no child its parent.
GLAUCON: That wave is far bigger and more dubitable than the other, both as regards its viability and its benefit.
SOCRATES: As far as its benefit is concerned, at least, I do not think anyonne would argue that the sharing of women and children is not the greatest good, if indeed it is viable. But I imagine there would be a lot of dispute about whether or not it is viable. (Plato 2004: 147, 457c-d)
Dropping the bombshell.
SOCRATES: I must pay the penalty. But do me this favor: let me take a holiday and act like those lazy people who make a banquet for themselves of their own thoughts when they are walking alone. People like that, as you know, do not bother to find out how any of their appetites might actually be fulfilled, so as to avoid the trouble of deliberating about what is possible and what is not. They assume that what they want is available, and then proceed to arrange all the rest, taking pleasure in going through everything they will do when they get it - thus making their already lazy souls even lazier. (Plato 2004: 147, 457e-458a)
Utopistid.
SOCRATES: Now, you are their lawgiver, and in just the way you selected these men, you will select as the women to hand over to them those who have natures as similar to theirs as possible. And because they have shared dwellings and meals, and none of them has any private property of that sort, they will live together; and through mixing together in the gymnasia and in the rest of their daily life, they will be driven by innate necessity, I take it, to have sex with one another. Or don't you think I am talking about necessities here?
GLAUCON: Not geometric necessities, certainly, but erotic ones; and they probably have a sharper capacity to persuade and attract most people.
SOCRATES: They do, indeed. But the next pount, Glaucon, is that for them to have unregulated sexual intercourse with one another, or to do anything else of that sort, would not be a pious thing in a city of happy people, and the rulers won't allow it. (Plato 2004: 148, 458c-e)
Nais-vahimehed (naisvahid?) on samuti kõige paremate hulgast välja valitud, aga kui nad elavad ja treenivad meestega koos, tekib vältimatult võimalus, et tahavad suguliselt läbi käia ja kõige kõige ilusamatena, kes pidevalt treenivad, on nad ka väga veenvad. Järelikult tuleb teha juhuseks "ebapühaks". Mulle meeldib, et siin otsustatakse oma suvast, mis on püha ja mis mitte - kõik, mis on püha, on samamoodi kellegi poolt suvaliselt otsustatud. Griffithil: "houses and dining-halls will be communal, and no one will possess any private property of this kind", "But it is a sexual inevitability", "haphazard sexual intercourse is unholy" (2000: 156).
SOCRATES: This: it looks as though our rulers will have to employ a great many lies and deceptions for the benefit of those they rule. And you remember, I suppose, we said all such things were useful as a kind of drug. (Plato 2004: 149, 459c-d)
Vaguely machiavellian. "our rulers will need to employ a good deal of falsehood and deception for the benefit of those they are ruling" (2000: 157).
SOCRATES: It follows from our previous agreement that the best men should mate with the best women in as many cases as possible, while the opposite should hold of the worst men and women; and that the offspring of the former should be reared, but not that of the latter, if our flock is going to be an eminent one. And all this must occur without anyone knowing except the rulers - if, again, our herd of guardians is to remain as free from faction as possible. (Plato 2004: 149, 459d-e)
Puhas eugeenika. Tõenäosus, et inimesi on samavõrd lihtne plaanipäraselt sigitada kui linde, koeri ja hobuseid tundub siiski väike. Geneetika ei ole nii sirgjooneline. Kui sellega, et parimad peavad siginema kõige rohkem liiale minna, on neil "parimatel" varsti Habsburgi lõuajoon.
SOCRATES: I imagine that some sophisticated lotteries will have to be created, then, so that an inferior person of that sort will blame chance rather than the rulers at each mating time. (Plato 2004: 149, 460a)
Süsteem vs "isiklik vastutus".
SOCRATES: And presumably, the young men who are good at war or at other things must - among other prizes and awards - be given a greater opportunity to have sex with the women, in order that a pretext may also be created at the same time for having as many children as possible fathered by such men. (Plato 2004: 150, 460a-b)
See tundub üsna kummaline, arvestades kui palju sõjas langeb puhtalt juhuse hooleks.
Thus, as we were saying just now, they will avoid sexual relations with each other. However, the law will allow brothers and sisters to have sex with one another, if the lottery works out that way and the Pythia approves. (Plato 2004: 152, 461e)
Mehed ja naised ei või omavoliliselt ilma valitseja ja preestrinnade heakskiiduta lapsi teha, aga õed ja vennad võivad? Ei tundu just kõige läbimõeldum süsteem sul, Sokrates.
[SOCRATES:] In the case of fathers, for example, must they show them the customary respect, solicitude, and obedience owed to parents? (Plato 2004: 154, 463d)
Või "in the way of respect, care, and the duty of obedienceo to parents". Ehk siis peaaegu: (1) care / solicitude; (2) obedience; (3) respect. Justkui 2.1 - teisesuse alamesmasus.
SOCRATES: As for an older person, he will be authorized to rule and punish all the younger ones. (Plato 2004: 156, 465a)
Jällegi kahtlaselt pütaagorlik. "An older person will of course be entitled to give orders and punishments to all those who are younger" (2000: 164).
SOCRATES: And won't we believe with Hesiod that, whenever any of that race die, they become "unsullied daimons living upon the earth, noble beings, protectors against evil, guardians of articulate mortals?" (Plato 2004: 161, 468e-469a)
Griffithil on siinkohal oluline joonealune märkus: "It was the practice of Greek communities to worship their important ancestral figures as 'heroes' or demigods. The authority of Apollo's oracle was often involved in conferring the status of hero on the dead person." (2000: 170, jm 30)
[SOCRATES:] But it is thought reasonable for the ones who have proved stronger to carry off the weaker ones' crops, and to have the attitude of mind of people who will one day be reconciled and won't always be at war. (Plato 2004: 163, 470d-e)
Siin andis Reeve enne (470b) "destroy only the year's harvest" - mida sa enam rüüstad, mille sa oled hävitanud? Samuti mitte kõige parem, et siin on omade ehk teiste kreeklastega "tülid" (faction), mitte sõda. Griffith annab "kodusõda" (civil war). Suuremas pildis meenutab pütaagorlaste ütlust, et kohtle sõpra nagu temast ei võiks kunagi saada vaenlast ja vaenlast, nagu temast võiks peagi saada sõda.
SOCRATES: Until philosophers rule as kings in their cities, or those who are nowadays called kings and leading men become genuine and adequate philosophers so that political power and philosophy become thoroughly blended together, while the numerous natures that now pursue either one exclusively are forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils, my dear Glaucon, nor, I think, will the human race. And until that happens, the same constitution we have now described in our discussion will never be born to the extent that it can, or see the light of the sun. (Plato 2004: 166, 473d-e)
Griffithil tabavam järjekord: "There is no end to suffering, Glaucon, for our cities, and none, I suspect, for the human race, unless either philosophers become kings in our cities, or the people who are now called kings and rulers become real, true philosophers" (2000: 175).
SOCRATES: And you also observe, I imagine, that if honor-lovers cannot become generals, they serve as lieutenants, and if they cannot be honored by important people and dignitaries, they are satisfied with being honored by insignificant and inferior ones, since it is honored as a whole of which they are desirers. (Plato 2004: 168, 475a-b)
Meenutab kangesti Rossi sotsioloogiat. "And you see the same thing, I think, with those who are ambitious and love honour. If they can't get to be generals, they become captains. If they can't win recognition from the great and the good, then they are happy to win recognition from those who are lesser and inferior, since it is recognition, in short, that their hearts are set on" (2000: 177).
SOCRATES: Then in the case of the philosopher, too, won't we say that he has an appetite for wisdom - not for one part and not another, but for all of it? (Plato 2004: 168, 475b)
Siin on näideteks toodud Glaukoni homoseksuaalsus, veiniarmastamine ja au-armastamine, sest "The Greek word philosophos, 'philosopher', is a compound of two words meaning 'lover of wisdom', and is formed in the same way as the terms describing the lovers of boys, of honours, and of wine" (2000: 177, jm 34).
GLAUCON: In that case, many strange people will be philosophers! I mean, all the lovers of seeing are what they are, I imagine, because they take pleasure in learning things. And the lovers of listening are very strange people to include as philosophers: they would never willingly attend a serious discussion or spend their time that way; yet, just as if their ears were under contract to listen to every chorus, they run around to all the Dionysiac festivals, whether in cities or villages, and never miss one. Are we to say that these people - and others who are students of similar things or of petty crafts - are philosophers? [|]
SOCRATES: Not at all, but they are like philosophers.
GLAUCON: Who do you think, then, are the true ones?
SOCRATES: The lovers of seeing the truth. (Plato 2004: 168-168, 475d-e)
Lõpuks! Midagigi selle anekdoodi kohta - miks filosoofid on Pythagorase sõnutsi need, kes lähevad mängudele ainult pealtvaatajaks. Oluline koht Griffithi tõlkes: "All those who love to be spectators, for example - I think the reason they love to be spectators is because they enjoy learning" (2000: 177).
SOCRATES: And the same argument applies, then, to just and unjust, good and bad, and all the forms: each of them is itself one thing, but because they appear all over the place in partnership with actions and bodies, and with one another, each of them appears to be many things. (Plato 2004: 169, 476a)
Juba tuttav teema: üks ja paljusus. Vastandid pütaagorlaste tabelis moodustavad ühtsusi.
SOCRATES: The lovers of listening and seeing are passionately devoted to beautiful sounds, colors, shapes, and everything fashioned out of such things. But their thought is unable to see the nature of the beautiful itself or to be passionately devoted to it. (Plato 2004: 169, 476b)
Filosoofi asi on asi iseeneses.
0 comments:
Post a Comment